That’s the thing, said Bill Shankly.
But that was a harder task, getting back, than actually running the government before. It’s harder to be leader of a big national party in opposition than when you’ve got the responsibility of government.
So you say to me, How does it feel when you get beat in a big match? I mean, how does it feel when you lose the election?
Harold Wilson said, When you get relegated, yes.
But, in actual fact, vote-wise, I mean, there’s more socialists than there are anybody else. But still you lose the election?
There’s a lot of estimates …
I mean, how come, Mr Wilson, that a man can vote one way then change his mind?
Harold Wilson shrugged. Harold Wilson smiled. And Harold Wilson said, But they do. And sometimes they vote for personalities as well as policies. I read somewhere that, basically, people are committed Labour people, more than Conservatives. And of course, more young people are coming on that way. But they change from time to time. They get fed up with the government, like supporters get fed up with a team. And I think that’s what’s happened. I’ll tell you, though, I was listening to the World Cup that Sunday night. The Sunday before. And we were winning two — nil, with about twenty minutes to go. And when I heard we lost three — two, I thought there’d be an effect. And I did hear there were a lot of voters saying, Oh, I can’t stand anything after this. You know, it affected them. I think it had some effect on the election. Not decisive, of course.
In Mexico?
In Mexico, yes. And I think the mistake was to take Charlton off. That was the signal to the Germans. All they had to do was pile into the attack. As long as Bobby was there, they had got to cover their own goal and they weren’t going to get the equaliser or the winning goal. But that’s a matter of opinion.
Well, you see. That’s, again, the same. Me, who was manager at one time. You, as prime minister. You’ve to make that decision. Now the manager made it and things went wrong. Now if he hadn’t have taken Charlton off, they may have lost just the same.
May have lost the same, yes.
So he, in his wisdom, thought he was right. So you would have did the same thing, and so would I.
Maybe, maybe. Well, you’ve got to follow your judgement.
Sure you have, said Bill Shankly. If you can’t make decisions, you’re nothing. Nothing …
Well, you’ve got to take decisions that’ll get attacked, misrepresented, sometimes praised. Sometimes you make a big mistake and you don’t get attacked for it. They may not know it. May not see it. But you know you’ve made the mistake. And then you are lucky if other people don’t find it out …
They don’t know about it, said Bill Shankly. Because it’s only you that knows it.
Harold Wilson smiled again. And Harold Wilson said, They are looking at a different part of the field.
Yes, yes, said Bill Shankly. Er, you’ve been thirty-five years on the Merseyside?
Harold Wilson sat back in his seat. Harold Wilson nodded again. And Harold Wilson said, I came here, yes, in 1932, to live here and go to school. Then I was elected for Ormskirk in 1940, which included a lot of Liverpool, thirty-seven thousand people within the Liverpool boundary, in West Derby, Dovecot and Croxteth. And then there was boundary changes. And I went to the new division of Huyton, still keeping Kirby. And now, of course, Huyton has lost Kirby. And all the time, it’s been growing. Kirby’s an entirely different place. It was a little farm village when I first represented it.
A big place now, said Bill Shankly. Been there many times.
Harold Wilson said, Yes. Big place now.
So that’s a long time, said Bill Shankly. I mean, to be in the same place. Now, I mean, I know that everything is difficult in politics, Mr Wilson. Everything is difficult. I mean, you are the leader of the country. And not long ago, er, we went into the Common Market. I don’t know anything really about the Common Market. Candidly, my whole life’s been football. And I’m not exactly ignorant about other facts, of course. I mean, everyday life. But the Common Market? Er, you took us into the Common Market?
Harold Wilson shook his head. And Harold Wilson said, Well, it’d been going on since 1962. And we always said, It’s good for us, if we’re not going to be crippled by it, and if it doesn’t break up the Commonwealth. And this is what the Labour Party said in opposition then. And when we were in government, we applied. And De Gaulle vetoed it, as he’d vetoed Harold Macmillan. Then the Conservatives took us in, Mr Heath, but I didn’t think he had the country behind him. We said we would negotiate. And if we didn’t get the right terms, we would recommend coming out. Then we had a referendum and the country decisively voted. Now nobody is in any doubt. We are a democratic country. People who fought hard against what I was saying in the referendum have loyally accepted it. I think that’s the kind of country that we are. And we’ve got big problems to solve. We’ve got to strengthen our own economy to make us better partners as well as to survive and prosper there. And I have some criticisms of other European countries. But mainly their football style again. Back to football. Back to football again …
Yes, said Bill Shankly. Well, I mean, I think, whether we are in the Common Market or not, I think we’ve still got to work hard. So it wouldn’t make any difference really.
Harold Wilson sat forward in his seat again. And Harold Wilson said, There is an argument for being in, an argument for being out. But on balance I came out strongly, in the end, for staying in. But it’s a big league is this one. You can’t go in as cripples. And you’ve got to build up your economic strength. I mean, people who say we’re done for, they’re totally wrong. There’s more ingenuity and hard work, possibly, in this country than people realise. And we’re showing it in our exports now, how well we’re doing in a world of depression. But we’ve got to pull to our full strength or we can be a drag.
Mr Wilson, said Bill Shankly, ever since I can remember, there’s been rumours that we were finished …
Yeah, yeah.
And pessimism. I mean, there’s always a shortage of optimism and people willing to get their jackets off. But, I mean, I was born and brought up in the pits. I was in the pit when I was fourteen.
Which coalfield were you brought up in?
I was in the Ayrshire coalfield.
Yes, I used to know them very well. Very well. I used to know every miners’ leader in Ayrshire, when I was younger.
Well, said Bill Shankly, we were in William Beard and Company, as they were then …
Harold Wilson said, Beard and Dolmillington.
It was. Beard and Dolmillington.
The managing director, I seem to remember, I’m going back thirty years, was called A. K. McKosh.
That’s him, said Bill Shankly. Well, I was in that area. So that, even then, I mean, there was nothing but pessimism. Because it was a mining area. And if there was no pit. And you couldn’t play football. You were out. You had no job.
Well, you know, we are developing new sources of coal mining in Scotland, areas that were nearly closed. We’re putting in a lot of money now, to develop new seams, because there’s new methods now, for mining …
Well, said Bill Shankly, this area where I am really was only scratched. And I think it’s a full coalfield. Well, I didn’t think that they should have shut down …
We’re going out to sea. The North Sea has got coal as well as oil. And there are new ways of getting them.
Under the sea at Fife and all.
Harold Wilson nodded again. And Harold Wilson said, I know. I like going to coal-mining areas. I like getting out of London. I’ve got nothing against London, some wonderful people there. But if you’re going to have any job to do with politics or running this country, you’ve got to get out and meet people where they are. Not just in London. I’m not worried about demonstrators. I don’t worry about them. This afternoon I was surprised, even in Liverpool, where I’ve been, you know, a couple of times a month, there would be crowds outside. They weren’t demonstrating either, when I was opening a community health centre. But I like to be out of London on a Friday and go around the country and meet people. Meet real people. Get away from the hothouse atmosphere of politics.