As you say, said Bill Shankly, I think the Houses of Commons is a hothouse. I mean, being in it all week. I mean, it must be a tremendous feeling to get out of it and get away?
Yes. It’s a great job to do. But everybody who’s there will do it better if they refresh themselves. As so many do, going to their constituencies, or going, as I’ve got to do, all over the country.
Yes, said Bill Shankly. You can be too close to it too long. You can’t see the wood for the trees.
That’s right. You need a breath of fresh air.
Especially if you come to Liverpool, said Bill Shankly.
Harold Wilson laughed. And Harold Wilson said, Fresh air in every way. I’ve been here three times in the last month. And I shall be coming up five times in the next couple of months …
Yeah, well, said Bill Shankly. And then, of course, there is two good teams here, too.
Yes, I once paid you that tribute at a football dinner. I said you were the fairest-minded man I’ve ever met when you said there were two good teams in football, in Merseyside.
Bill Shankly laughed.
No, I did say, if you remember, I criticised you a bit for that, for not mentioning Tranmere Rovers …
Yeah, laughed Bill Shankly again. Yeah.
You then agreed with me. And you did a lot to help Tranmere Rovers from Liverpool.
I did last season, said Bill Shankly. For a little while, yes.
Before that, though. When you were manager. I mean, there was the goalkeeper …
Oh yes, said Bill Shankly. Tommy Lawrence. We gave them some money and some players. We’ve done quite a bit. Mind you, we were trying to help ourselves as well.
That makes sense, doesn’t it? Bread cast on the waters …
But we did try to help them, said Bill Shankly. There is no doubt about that. And we’ve helped many people. And if you can’t help people, then it’s a bad day.
Yes, you are helping yourself but finding honourable work for someone who was reaching the end of his First Division career. And, at the same time, helping to develop some young lads.
Yes, said Bill Shankly. Yes. Er, I’ve been playing, I have played football all my life. And I’ve been in the game forty-three years now. And I try to keep fit. I mean, I’ve got an easier task than you, of course. But you now tell me you’ve lost a lot of weight? And I think you have. You look well …
Harold Wilson nodded. And Harold Wilson said, I have lost about a stone in weight.
So how do you keep fit then, asked Bill Shankly.
Not in the ways I would like to. I would like a lot more exercise. When I was at Downing Street before, I used to play golf every weekend when I could, you know, and so I played a bit of golf. And then I got a gammy knee a couple of years ago. And now I’ve taken it up again this year. My problem is there’s so much, things are moving at such a pace all the time, internationally and nationally, that I haven’t had the exercise. I take the dog for a walk. He likes that. But I haven’t had time to play golf since I came back from my holidays.
So, said Bill Shankly, in actual fact …
The answer is not enough!
Mr Wilson, said Bill Shankly, not enough. But I think that possibly dieting, if you’re not getting too much exercise, would …
Harold Wilson leant forward. And Harold Wilson said, The real truth is, you know, it’s not dieting. Although the doctor thought I was mad, I started drinking a lot of beer. I like it …
Yes, yes.
It makes me eat less. Now I think I am a bad guinea pig, because most people put weight on with beer …
They do, said Bill Shankly. They do.
But it works for me.
Well, said Bill Shankly, if you drink more beer and you eat less, then, I mean, and you are losing weight, then it must be working. Because you look fit now. And you must have shed a few pounds.
Harold Wilson nodded again. And Harold Wilson said, I’m much thinner. I’m lower now than I have been for fifteen years.
And is it possible that you could get a routine, said Bill Shankly. That you could go and have a walk? Two or three miles?
Harold Wilson shook his head. And Harold Wilson said, I can’t get the time. But that dog is always waiting, if I get a chance of an hour. And he’s now found the way to the local pub from Chequers.
That’s your dog, Paddy?
My dog Paddy, yes. A great, big, soft, daft Labrador.
But is there any way you can get away from the people who are, you know, surrounding you all the time and have a walk?
Harold Wilson said, Oh yes. Yes.
You can do that, really? Do that daily or nightly?
I wouldn’t have time. And I’d have to have security protection. Because there are a lot of strange people around these days …
I know that, said Bill Shankly. I know that.
Harold Wilson smiled. And Harold Wilson said, But they are good fun. We’ve played golf together, my detectives and I. We go boating together. Long holidays is my answer. I take a long holiday because I never know when I’ll be brought back. Sometimes I’ve been brought back for a week, in the middle of the summer holidays. So I go for three weeks’ holiday, as I get hardly any Saturdays or Sundays off. I go for three weeks’ holiday. If I’m not brought back by a crisis — and I wasn’t this summer — then it’s a long holiday. And I enjoy it.
You go to the Scilly Isles, asked Bill Shankly.
Always. Yes. Walking, walking. Swimming, boating.
Wonderful, wonderful.
A bit of fishing.
But this is the whole thing, said Bill Shankly. If you keep fit, it’s got to be regular.
Harold Wilson nodded. And Harold Wilson said, It should be, it should be. Yes.
It’s got to be a little, often, said Bill Shankly. And the way to eat and keep fit and not put weight on is to eat a little, often.
Harold Wilson nodded. And Harold Wilson said, But there is a bigger thing than this. And that is sleep. I can always sleep. Last week, when I was tired, I slept for ten hours. And nine hours the next day.
Well, I tell you something, Mr Wilson: if you can sleep that well, you’ll have a long life.
And the answer is: never worry. If you worry in the night, you say, If this question can be solved, I’ll do it better at nine o’clock than three o’clock. I’ve taught a lot of people how to sleep.
This is good, said Bill Shankly. Er, and your dog, is it out of condition? I mean, because some dogs do, if they are lying about?
He gets a little bit of weight. On holiday, he walks. I walk him and he walks me. We both walk hard. And he’s swimming for two or three hours a day. He’s a beautiful swimmer.
Wonderful, wonderful.
And I swim a bit at Chequers. In Mr Heath’s time, some generous people built a swimming bath there. That’s a good way of doing exercise quickly.
Yes, said Bill Shankly. Yes. That’s good for you, too. Not only that — the exercise you get — but the water refreshes you.
Yes, it does. I’m not a good swimmer. I’m a bad swimmer. But I learnt to swim on Merseyside at the Port Sunlight swimming baths, which is where we used to go from Wirral Grammar School.
But the water refreshes you?