[…]
THOMA: I can tell you, you can’t expect anything from the General Staff. Ninety-nine per cent of them are spineless creatures. They’ve always been ‘yes’-men. They’ve never been commanders, but only ‘assistants’ of the commander. That is why most of them are spineless creatures. Their upbringing and so on makes them so. You can expect nothing from them.[5]
BURCKHARDT: If the Germans succeeded in overthrowing the National Socialist Government now and then fought on, would they manage to achieve peace?
THOMA: It’s not as easy as all that.
Document 6
CSDIC (UK), SRX 1587 [TNA, WO 208/4169]
WILHELM RITTER VON THOMA – General der Panzertruppe – Captured 4 Nov. 42 in North Africa.
HANS DIETRICH TIESENHAUSEN – Kapitänleutnant (Lieut. Cmdr in command of U-331) – Captured 17 Nov. 42.
Information received: 15 Feb. 43
THOMA: HITLER imagined he could break his word time and again, if you examine his political career, it has been nothing but breaches of faith. One always forgets that. The written agreements with CHAMBERLAIN[6] and all that sort of thing were all broken, so that the world has no faith in him! People shouldn’t be surprised if they now say quite definitely: ‘It doesn’t matter what it is, right to the end, to the complete and unconditional surrender and even the least vestige of such a system must disappear,’ – that’s quite understandable. Of course the others are hypocrites, one should realise that clearly, because ROOSEVELT is just as much of an autocrat as HITLER[7] or CHURCHILL, but it isn’t brought home to them quite so much. […]
The KAISER was as gentle as a nun in comparison with ADOLF HITLER. The former did at least let you speak your mind – the latter won’t let you open your mouth. I’ve seen it myself, but I didn’t give way, I should still be ashamed today if I had given way to HITLER. If there’s any dirty business afoot I won’t take part, I shouldn’t dream of it. How could I bring myself to do it? How could I order my men to commit murder? I wouldn’t dream of it. None of my superiors has the right to order me to do his dirty work, let him do it himself! I’ve said so straight out. I can swear a solemn oath that not a single man has been shot by my people,[8] but men were often brought before me. I remember once there were two or three commissars, they thought that now they would be shot. I said: ‘No, take off your badges, it’s better and don’t let anyone else know that you are commissars.’ They realised at once what was up. They took them off, too. I remember that last spring in the conferences with HQ, the army commanders were there and they told us about conversations they had had with the FÜHRER, ‘THE FÜHRER is personally firmly convinced that the country in EUROPE which is nearest to communism is ENGLAND.’ He actually said that last year. That’s complete madness, that’s a sign that the man has never been out in the world. Then I burst out – it was with Feldmarschall KLUGE[9] – I said: ‘Sir, if any country is going communist, ENGLAND will certainly be the very last to do so.’ He said: ‘Yes, I didn’t say that, it was the FÜHRER who said it.’ That’s the sort of stuff the Generals are being fed on! It’s a foul business, a misunderstanding of the situation.
Document 7
CSDIC (UK), SRX 1603 [TNA, WO 208/4162]
HANS DIETRICH TIESENHAUSEN – Kapitänleutnant (Lieut. Cmdr in command of U-331) – Captured 17 Nov. 42.
LUDWIG CRÜWELL – General der Panzertruppe – Captured 29 May 42 in North Africa.
WILHELM RITTER VON THOMA – General der Panzertruppe – Captured 4 Nov. 42 in North Africa.
Information received: 18 Feb. 43
THOMA: (After listening to GOEBBELS’s speech): It’s a scandal! It’s shameful! Regarded objectively it is a speech of despair. Does anyone get a different impression of it? To me it seems to be a speech of sheer desperation.[10]
CRÜWELL: Yes, at the beginning I thought something was coming. The object of the whole speech is simply to urge the people to accept measures which are already in existence.
THOMA: Just a disgusting inflammatory speech! The net result will be that tonight – well, no, not tonight because the Jews are not allowed out – but tomorrow, when they come along wearing the Star of David, a few of them will be murdered. That’s all!
CRÜWELL: What absolute rubbish! That piece at the end! He spoke too long. But it was quite senseless not to close on the note of confidence in the FÜHRER; that ought to have been the conclusion; but no, off he went again, demanding more of the women. At first I thought: ‘Good Heavens, what is he talking about now?’
THOMA: I thought he was going to announce something of special importance, too.
CRÜWELL: It seems to me that if these measures are necessary, one can only ask: ‘Why didn’t they introduce them sooner?’ But why must he always unceasingly stir the people?
THOMA: Absolutely disgusting! It ought to have been a short concise speech, couched in serious terms, lasting half an hour at the most, but it was a typical beer-house tirade. He’s always talked like that. He’s been doing it for twenty years. It’s disgraceful, absolutely disgraceful! And to collect a rabble like that and compel them to go in and shout because there’s a man standing behind them. I am ashamed of the impression these fellows make on the world. I feel thoroughly ashamed. […]
THOMA: It wasn’t at all a good speech. I could have imagined it in a much more dignified way. Quite apart from his digression when he stirred up hatred of the Jews again – the first half of his speech was about nothing but the Jews – the poor Jews, who have really had nothing to do with all this – and then his malicious way of saying: ‘We will drive them out completely,’ – what’s that got to do with the present war situation? It shows a complete misunderstanding of the whole business. What can the people at home be thinking? It’s sheer impudence for the fellow to reprove the middle-class – they’re having by far the worst time.
CRÜWELL: Who has upheld our culture in the last hundred years, for hundreds of years!
THOMA: And then a typical GOEBBELS touch, ‘That is all being destroyed now; but it is guaranteed that it will all be built up again immediately.’ He treats the subject as though it were a house of cards. It’s affrontery! He ought to realise that there are other people who give some thought to the matter and have devoted some attention to it.
CRÜWELL: Above all, people will ask why they didn’t do it sooner.
THOMA: I should like to have GOEBBELS one evening in quite a small circle. I’ve heard a lot about how delightful and charming he can be, from people who know him well. But in those matters – no! A man who was there told me that he gave a lecture on the conduct of propaganda, at the Tank School last year, at which not only the senior officers were present but the youngest officers and women were as well. He held forth and the gist of the whole thing was: ‘The masses themselves are stupid, you can do what you like with them.’ That’s how he talked to those people. They were amazed.
CRÜWELL: He knows something about the matter, there’s no doubt about that.
THOMA: He really let the cat out of the bag, when he asserted: ‘The masses themselves are stupid, you can do what you like with them.’ They didn’t like that at all. […]
6
Arthur Neville Chamberlain (18.3.1869–9.11.1940), British Prime Minister 28.5.1937–10.5.1940. Negotiated with Hitler the Munich Agreement of 30.9.1938 that allowed a German occupation of the Czech Sudetenland and prevented war. By occupying the remainder of the country on 15.3.1939, Hitler made a mockery of the treaty.
7
The generals were virtually unanimous in their feelings towards Roosevelt. Luftwaffe Generalleutnant Walter Friedensburg (1889–1959) considered him ‘one of the world’s cruelest monsters’ – ‘He is perhaps the greatest criminal there has ever been’ (SRGG 1154(c), 22.4.1945). Generalmajor Goerbig confessed at the beginning of May 1945, ‘When the American President (Truman) said how sorry he was that Roosevelt had not lived to experience the day, I could hardly conceal my joy that this piece of shit was denied the satisfaction’ (GRGG 296, 6–9.5.1945, TNA WO 208/4177).
9
Generalfeldmarschall Hans Günther von Kluge (30.10.1882–18.8.1944), from 18.12.1941 C-in-C Army Group Centre. Thoma refers here to a commanders’ conference on 21.3.1942 in which the C-in-C, 4.Pz.Armee, General Richard Ruoff, spoke about a foreign policy discussion he had had with Hitler in which the latter had asserted that Britain was making giant strides towards ‘Bolshevisation’. Thoma responded, ‘Previously we were ten times more Bolshevised than the British.’ The protocol does not indicate whether von Kluge attended the commanders’ conference.
10
Goebbels’s speech of 18.2.1943, very anti-Jewish in its opening passages, is reproduced in Heiber, ‘Goebbels-Reden’, Vol. 2, pp. 172–208.