Q: Did the Germans-Did you know what would happen to the Jews when they were deported?
A: Nein, nein. We were told nothing. That was government business.
Q: So you knew nothing about the camps?
A: Camps?
Q: The concentration camps. To which the Jews were deported.
A: That is all propaganda.
Q: Propaganda!
A: That is right, propaganda. Ach, I am sure some Jews did die. But from the war. From bombs and cold and sickness and hunger. Just like the Germans did.
Q: But-But Frau Kluge, what about the photographs, the-
A: Propaganda. As I have said. Falsehoods spread by the Allies after the war.
Q: I see… Now, um, now, Frau Kluge, perhaps you could tell me a little more about what your life was like during the war. What do you remember most?
A: The rations. At first. Then no food anywhere. We were starving. The cold. The air raids. Terrible.
Q: What were you doing during the war? Did you have a job? A family?
A: Nein, no family. My mother died in 1936 of tuberculosis. When everybody but the Jews was starving. She had no medicine while they pranced about in fur.
Q: And your father?
A: [shrugs] I never knew him. He died in the first war.
Q: You had no family of your own? No husband, no-
A: Nein. Ja, there was a man. We were to be engaged. But he was in the Wehrmacht and he died in Russia. On the Volga.
Q: So you were alone during the war.
A: Ja, ja, I had to fend completely for myself. To stand on my own two feet during this time, it was very difficult.
Q: What did you do? What kind of work?
A: I was a switchboard operator.
Q: And this paid well enough for you to get along?
A: Nein. Nein. I had barely enough to survive. And with the rations-Ach, it was so bad. The things I had to do to get by.
Q: What sort of things?
A: Nothing. Nothing. Just… to get by. That is all.
Q: How did you get by, exactly?
A: I-What do you think? Waited in lines with everybody else. Sometimes stole. When there is nothing to put in the stomach…
Q: It must have made you desperate.
A: Ja, ja, desperate, that is right, now you understand me. What I did I had to do.
Q: Which was?
A: I have already told you. Nothing. But. Some others. Some other people…
Q: What other people?
A: They were terrible times.
Q: Desperate.
A: Ja, desperate. And this one woman I knew…
Q: She was your friend?
A: Nein, nein. Not a friend. An acquaintance. Somebody I knew from work. Not very well. Sometimes we shared a little lunch. Not very often. You understand?
Q: Yes. What was her name?
A: I do not remember. I do not remember.
Q: That's fine, Frau Kluge. But you were telling me… She also was desperate?
A: Ja. And she, so she had to do something…
Q: What was it? What did she do?
A: She… This woman, she did not mean to do anything bad. But she was desperate, as you have said, nicht? And so hungry while the Jews, they still had the money. And she, this woman, she thought, what would be the harm in it, you understand? She knew there still were some of them around. Hiding. Like they hid their money. She-
Q: Forgive me for interrupting, Frau Kluge, but where was this? Where the Jews were hiding?
A: All over. The city was riddled with them. And this woman, she knew of some in the building next to hers. In the cellar. So she-
Q: This was in Munich?
A: Ja. Very near to where I lived. On the, the outer ring, the-
Q: The suburbs?
A: Ja, that is correct, the suburbs. On the outer ring there were still some hiding. So she, the woman, she went to them.
Q: To the Jews?
A: Ja, ja, to the Jews. I was just-You know, she, she said to me, Petra, I know where some are. In this cellar. Under a staircase, in a room for holding potatoes, and they once owned a store, a very big shoe store, many of them around Munich so they must still have money and also there was a reward-
Q: A reward for turning in the Jews?
A: Ja, ja, that is right, to the Gestapo. A big cash reward. So this desperate woman, she went into that basement and she said to them, Jews, I do not want to turn you in. I have nothing against Jews. So you will give me the same amount of money as the reward, and I will say nothing.
Q: And they gave her the money?
A: Ja. They had diamonds. Small ones. Not very good quality. It was a little disappointing. But some rings. Also earrings. Sewed into the linings of their coats.
Q: So she took their diamonds.
A. Ja, natürlich. She was desperate.
Q: I see. And she didn't turn them in?
A: Nein. She did not turn those Jews in. She said to me, Petra, you see, now I have a little something, at least enough to eat. Now I can provide for myself. She had no family, nobody to look after her-
Q: So she took their diamonds and she didn't turn them in.
A: Ja. Nein. Not right away.
Q: Not right away.
A: That is correct. Not immediately. But you know, money goes only so far, and soon, soon they had nothing left to give her, at least that is what they said, although of course there probably was more. So she had to turn them in.
Q: For the reward.
A: Ja, that is right. She went to the Gestapo and she got that reward. And do you know what he said?
Q: Who?
A: The Gestapo man. A little fat man with no hair on his head-This is what she told me.
Q: Right. So what did he say?
A: He said, Fräulein whatever-her-name-was, I do not remember, Fräulein, he said, you have done a very good thing. For your country. For your Führer and Vaterland. I am very happy to give you this money. And if you know of more Jews, I will be happy to reward you again in this way. If you bring them to my attention.
Q: And-Did she?
A: Did she what?
Q: Did she know of more Jews?
A: Well, ja, they were everywhere. All over, as I have said. Hiding in the woodwork. Like lice. Like, what do you call it, termites.
Q: Did she turn them in too?
A: I-I-Ach, well. Who knows. I did not want to know about such things. As I have said, they did not concern me, nicht? And I did not know her, you remember. I did not know her very well at all.
Q: But what do you think? Do you think she turned in other Jews?