And they’re dissatisfied, and once in a while it catches up with them, with any of us. It has to. And when that happens you often have a need to get away from yourself, to get out of yourself. I suppose a swinger could use drink or drugs to do it. Any kind of a binge will do, but we’re people who react to things in sexual terms, so what could be more natural than to select a sex binge? The hangover isn’t too bad, and you don’t ruin your liver—
Some Questions and Answers, Pertinent and Impertinent
SHEILA GORDON
Are you glad you started swinging?
That’s a tricky question. An awfully tricky question, because when you ask a person if he’s glad about something that happened to him a long time ago and that has set a whole pattern of his life since then, it’s the equivalent of asking him if he likes his life, his present situation. Because obviously I can’t imagine what my life now would be like if Paul and I had never started, so if I say I’m glad it means I think what we have now is better than we would possibly have had otherwise. And vice versa.
Yes, I’m glad we started.
Especially when I look at people who didn’t. I’ve read that swingers typify the overemphasis of sex in American culture, that swingers are people who are obsessed with sex. Well, you can’t really argue with that, can you? We’re all of us obviously obsessed with sex.
But so is everybody else. Everybody. The whole fucking culture, the civilization, is obsessed with sex. Everything everybody reads or writes or says or does. The advertisements, Madison Avenue. Mouthwash commercials that just keep telling you that if you use their product nobody will know you like to suck. I’m sorry, this is awful, I’m being crude...
Everybody is obsessed with sex, as if there’s nothing else in the world to think about. And the swingers are at least doing all the things that everybody else wants to do. We may be disgusting from time to time, and I feel we are, but we’re more honest than the rest of the world, and I do regard honesty as a virtue. A painful one, but a virtue all the same, and we’re not that long on virtues, are we?
I’m glad we started.
Do you think swinging is a permanent part of American culture?
This is something swingers talk about frequently. And it’s a popular parlor game to speculate on the number of swinging couples in the country. The books estimate as high as ten million couples, or ten percent of the population. But I can’t even think in those terms, and I understand the estimates have no statistical validity.
I do know the practice is spreading. People drop out, some of them stay out, but new people start in at a faster rate. And I can’t see any reason why the trend should shift.
In a way, I think swinging is a part of a broader cultural trend. More than just sex. Increasing use of drugs, increasing rejection of all the old values. That’s the direction we’re all going, and I suppose someday it has to stop, but if the end is in sight I can’t see that far.
Do you think it will always be a part of your life?
Yes.
I didn’t used to think so. I always thought that the idea of a couple of people in their sixties having a swap orgy was just too silly to think about. But then I remembered when I was a teen-ager and I couldn’t believe that married people actually made love after they were thirty or so.
In time we may have trouble finding people willing to swing with us. You know, I think that might be the charm that would bring on a third and final suicide attempt.
Let’s talk about something else.
Would you want your children to become swingers?
God, where did you get these questions?
That’s so impossible to answer. They’re so young, and to look at them now and try to answer that question, well, of course it’s impossible. And of course I’ve asked myself the same question, of course I have, maybe a hundred times or more, and if you think that makes it the slightest damn bit easier to answer—
Of course they don’t even know — I was going to say they don’t even know anything about sex at their ages, but I know that’s not true. They know more than I did at their age, I’m sure. But they don’t know about us, about swinging.
There’s always that fear, you know, that you’ll be banging some stranger on the living room floor and one of the kids will wander in sleepy-eyed looking for a glass of water. It’s happened to people we know, and we’ve heard stories... Some of the time I think it’s a case of people wanting to get caught, like a husband committing adultery and wanting to be found out. But that’s one of the big what-ifs swingers flash on. What if the kids walk in, that’s one; and the other is, what if we answer an ad and it turns out to be your parents, or the minister and his wife, or whatever your particular trip may be...
I wouldn’t want them to be swingers now, or at any time during their childhood. And when they’re older, when they’re old enough to make that decision for themselves, when they’re married, that is, then whether or not I would want it would not enter into it. I would have no right to want it or not want it. I would have no right to have my opinion.
But that’s copping out, isn’t it?
Shit.
Okay. I would want them to swing if that was what they wanted. I would want them to follow their own instincts, and if they wanted to swap, to swing, I would rather they did that than that they repressed it.
I would prefer not to know about it, however.
And I don’t care if that’s logical or not.
PAUL GORDON
Are you glad you started swinging?
Today? Yes, definitely, one hundred percent.
Because today I feel good, I feel positive. When things get to me I have a tendency to blame it all on the kind of life we lead. I suppose that’s natural enough. “Look, it’s raining, all because we became wife-swappers.” That sort of thing.
All in all, given the kind of people we are, I’m sure our lives and our marriage are better off now than they would be if we stayed faithful to each other or if we cheated on the side.
Do you think swinging is a permanent part of American culture?
I’m not even certain that there’s anything very permanent about American culture itself. Or about the world. Even if everything doesn’t go boom one of these days — and I’m very much afraid it will — but even if it doesn’t, I don’t really think the world will last out the century. If it isn’t the famine it’ll be the pollution. One thing or another. I don’t hold out much possibility of things working out. So in that sense I think swinging will last as long as the world does, because it’s certainly not going to die out in the next thirty or forty years.
More people do it every day. No one has any idea of the number, the figures you read are just wild guesses. What would numbers mean, anyway? They wouldn’t give a true picture, because as important as the numerical aspect is the nature of the people involved, their relative influence in the makeup of society.
It’s not just American society, either. I think there’s probably a higher percentage of swingers in Canada, and I know there are a lot of them in England and France and Germany and other Western European countries.
I can’t believe it will go away. Aside from all the arguments about the direction society is taking, more liberal and permissive and all, can you name me one single instance of a human vice dying out? Or even diminishing in number? When people learn a vice they don’t let go of it. Drinking, smoking, drugs, everything.