"He was there. He saw what happened."
"That being the case, you have done absolutely nothing wrong," Coughlin said.
"I already had that figured out," Matt said, which earned him a pained look.
"Let me tell you how this works, Matty," Coughlin said. "You have civil rights, even if you are a cop-"
Well, that's nice to know.
"-in other words, when you are interviewed by Homicide, you don't have to say anything at all, and you have the right to have an attorney present. Miranda. You understand?"
Matt nodded.
"Some cops, if they're worried, will want a lawyer. The FOP will provide one. If you figure you need one, you could have an FOP lawyer. Or Colonel Mawson-"
What the hell is he leading up to?
"-but on the other hand, you don't have to have a lawyer. Just answer the questions in the interview as honestly as you can."
"Are you telling me I shouldn't ask for a lawyer?"
"I'm telling you that Armando C. Giacomo, if you have a lawyer, especially if you have Colonel Mawson, is probably going to try to twist that around so it looks as if you were reluctant to tell the Homicide people what really happened, to make it look as if the only reason you didn't get indicted by the Grand Jury is because Mawson was there when you were interviewed."
"Youare telling me I should tell Colonel Mawson 'thanks, but no thanks'?"
"I'm telling you that you have to make up your mind what's best for you and the Police Department."
Jesus H. Christ!
STATEMENT OF: P/O Matthew Mark Payne, Badge 7701
DATE AND TIME: 1105 A.M. Jan. 5, 1973 PLACE: Homicide Bureau, Police Admin. Bldg.
CONCERNING: Death by Shooting of Charles David Stevens, aka Abu Ben Mohammed
IN PRESENCE OF: Captain Henry C. Quaire; Detective Kenneth J. Summers, Badge 4505
INTERROGATED BY: Det. Alonzo Kramer, Badge 1967
RECORDED BY: Mrs. Jo-Ellen Garcia-Romez
I am: Detective Kramer of the Homicide Bureau
We are questioning you concerning: your involvement in the fatal shooting of Charles David Stevens, also known as Abu Ben Mohammed. We have a duty to explain to you and to warn you that you have the following legal rights:
A. You have the right to remain silent and do not have to say anything at all.
B. Anything you say can and will be used against you in court.
C. You have a right to talk to a lawyer of your own choice before we ask you any questions, and also to have a lawyer here with you while we ask questions.
D. If you cannot afford to hire a lawyer, and you want one, we will see that you have a lawyer provided to you, free of charge, before we ask you any questions.
E. If you are willing to give us a statement, you have a right to stop anytime you wish.
Q. Do you understand that you have a right to keep quiet and do not have to say anything at all?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Do you understand that anything you say can and will be used against you?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Do you want to remain silent?
A. I'll tell you anything you want to know.
Q. Do you understand you have a right to talk to a lawyer before we ask you any questions?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Do you understand that if you cannot afford to hire a lawyer, and you want one, we will not ask you any questions until a lawyer is appointed for you free of charge?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Do you want to talk to a lawyer at this time, or to have a lawyer with you while we ask you questions?
A. I don't want a lawyer, thank you.
Q. Are you willing to answer questions of your own free will, without force or fear, and without any threats and promises having been made to you?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. State your name, city of residence, and employment?
A. Matthew M. Payne, I live in Philadelphia, and I am a police officer.
Q. State your badge number and duty assignment?
A. Badge Number 7701. Special Operations Division.
Q. What is your specific assignment?
A. I am administrative assistant to Inspector Wohl.
Q. That is Staff Inspector Peter Wohl, commanding officer of the Special Operations Division?
A. That's right.
Q. Were you on duty at approximately five A.M. January 4 of this year?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. What was the nature of your duty at that time and place?
A. Inspector Wohl ordered me to accompany Mr. Mickey O'Hara of the Bulletin during an arrest that was taking place.
Q. That is Mr. Michael J. O'Hara, a police reporter employed by the Philadelphia Bulletin?
A. That's correct.
Q. Were you in uniform and armed at this time?
A. I was in civilian clothing. I was armed.
Q. Why were you in civilian clothing?
A. I am in a plainclothes assignment.
Q. You do not then normally wear a uniform on duty?
A. No, sir.
Q. With what type weapon were you armed?
A. A Smith amp; Wesson Undercover revolver.
Q. That is a five-shot.38 Special caliber short-nosed revolver?
A. Correct.
Q. Was that weapon issued to you by the Police Department for use in your official duties?
A. No.
Q. Where did you get that revolver?
A. Colosimo's Gun Store.
Q. That revolver is your personal property?
A. Yes.
Q. Have you been issued a revolver or other weapon by the Police Department for use in your duties?
A. Yes.
Q. Since you were on duty, why were you not carrying that weapon?
A. I have permission to carry the Undercover.
Q. From whom?
A. From Inspector Wohl.
Q. For what purpose?
A. It's easier to conceal, more concealable, than the Police Special.
Q. The Police Special being the.38 Special Caliber Smith amp; Wesson Military and Police revolver with four-inch barrel issued to you by the Police Department?
A. Yes.
Q. Have you undergone any official instruction, testing, and/or qualification involving the Smith amp; Wesson Undercover revolver with which you were armed on January 3 of this year?
A. I went through the prescribed course at the Police Firearms Range before I was authorized to carry the Undercover revolver.
Q. With what type of cartridge was your Undercover revolver loaded at the time and date we're talking about?
A. Standard Remington.38 Special cartridges, with a 158-grain round nose lead bullet.
Q. Where did you get that ammunition?
A: It was issued to me.
Q. It is the standard ammunition prescribed by regulation for the Undercover revolver?
A. So far as I know, for both of them. The Military and Police and the Undercover.
Q. What were your specific orders in regard to Mr. O'Hara?
A. Inspector Wohl told me to take Mr. O'Hara to Lieutenant Suffern.
Q. That is Lieutenant Edward J. Suffern, who is assigned to Special Operations?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Go on.
A. Inspector Wohl told me to take Mr. O'Hara to Lieutenant Suffern, and to tell him that he had authorized Mr. O'Hara to accompany Lieutenant Suffern during the arrest, but that Mr. O'Hara was not to enter the building where Stevens was until he had been arrested.
Q. Who is Stevens?
A. Charles David Stevens. Also known as Abu Ben Mohammed. A warrant had been issued for his arrest in connection with an armed robbery and murder at Goldblatt's furniture store.
Q. Were you charged with serving this warrant?
A. No. It was to be served by a Homicide detective, backed up by men under Lieutenant Suffern.
Q. You took Mr. O'Hara to Lieutenant Suffern?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And then what happened?
A. Lieutenant Suffern said that Mr. O'Hara and myself should accompany him. When the time came, we got in his car and went with him.
Q. Where did you go with Lieutenant Suffern in his car?
A. To the alley behind Stevens's house.
Q. I now show you a map of the Frankford area of Philadelphia. Would you please mark on the map where you were taken by Lieutenant Suffern?
A. All right. (See Map marked as Attachment I.)
Q. And then what happened?
A. Mr. O'Hara got out of the car.
Q. Why, if you know, did Mr. O'Hara get out of the car?
A. He said he didn't want his camera lens to become fogged as he was afraid it might if he jumped out of the car when the arrest was made.
Q. Go on.
A. I got out of the car too.
Q. Did you have Lieutenant Suffern's permission to do so?
A. My orders were to accompany Mr. O'Hara. So I got out of the car too.
Q. What comment, if any, did Lieutenant Suffern have about either of you getting out of the car?
A. I seem to recall he told Mickey, Mr. O'Hara, to stick close to the wall.
Q. What, if anything, did you or Mr. O'Hara do at this time?
A. Mr. O'Hara wiped the lens of his camera with his handkerchief.
Q. And what, if anything, happened next?
A. I heard noise, what sounded like wood breaking, in the alley in the direction of Stevens's house. After a moment, I detected movement in the alley.
Q. Had you, at that time, drawn your weapon?
A. Not drawn it. I had taken it from my ankle holster and put it in my overcoat pocket.
Q. Your weapon, was it in sight or not?
A. No. It was not.
Q. Why did you take your weapon from its holster and put it in your pocket?
A. Because I thought I could get at it easier that way if I needed it.
Q. Then you anticipated having need of your weapon?
A. No. I was just being careful.
(Chief Inspectors Lowenstein and Coughlin became additional witnesses to the interrogation at this point.)
Q. Did Mr. O'Hara see you take your weapon from your ankle holster?
A. I don't know if he did or not.
Q. How about Lieutenant Suffern?
A. I don't know. I don't believe so.
Q. Go on.
A. Where were we?
Q. You and Mr. O'Hara were in the alley, you said. You said you detected movement.
A. Okay. I realized that what I was seeing was a man coming in my direction. So I called to him to stop.
Q. Did you identify yourself as a police officer?
A. I said, Stop. Police officer.
Q. At this time, did you recognize the person in the alley as Mr. Charles D. Stevens?
A. No.
Q. Had you, previous to this occasion, ever seen Mr. Charles D. Stevens?
A. No.
Q. Had you ever seen a photograph of Mr. Stevens and/or were you familiar with his description?
A. No.
Q. Then you did not recognize the individual coming toward you as Mr. Stevens?
A. No. But it didn't matter. It was too dark. All I saw was somebody coming down the alley.
Q. But you shot at him. Why did you shoot at him?
A. Because he had shot at me, because he had shot me. Jesus Christ!
Q. (Captain Quaire) Take it easy, Payne.
A. Yes, sir. Sorry.
Q. (Detective Kramer) Did you see any weapon in Mr. Stevens's hand?
A. Not until he was down.
Q. How did you know he, Stevens, was shooting at you?
A. He was the only one in the alley. I didn't know who it was until later. I saw flashes. I was hit.
Q. What was the response of the individual you now know to be Charles David Stevens to your order, Stop. Police officer?
A. He screamed, Get out of my way, motherfucker.
Q. Those precise words?
A. That's a direct quote. For some reason, I remember it very clearly.
Q. (Captain Quaire) Payne, spare us the sarcasm.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. (Detective Kramer)You said, screamed. That suggests pain.
A. Strike, screamed. Insert, shouted angrily.
Q. He angrily shouted, Get out of my way, motherfucker, or words to that effect. Is that what you mean to say?
A. He angrily shouted, Get out of my way, motherfucker. Those exact words.
Q. And then what happened?
A. Then he started shooting.
Q. You're sure it was Charles D. Stevens who started shooting?
A. I am sure the man in the alley started shooting. He was subsequently identified as Charles D. Stevens.
Q. And?
A. He hit me. I got my gun out and started shooting back at him.
Q. Until he shot at you, your pistol was out of sight, in your overcoat pocket. Is that what you're telling me?
A. Right.
Q. How many times did you fire your weapon?
A. Four times.
Q. You're sure?
A. I'm sure.
Q. Was there any indication that any of your bullets struck Mr. Stevens?
A. Yes. He went down. Somebody, I don't remember who, subsequently told me I had hit him twice.
Q. By, went down, do you mean he fell down in the alley?
A. Yes.
Q. What, if anything, did you then do?
A. I went to him to make sure he was down.
Q. You have stated you were wounded. Where were you wounded?
A. In the forehead and left calf.
Q. Since you were wounded, how did you manage, as you said you did, to go to Mr. Stevens?
A. I don't know. Hobbled over, I suppose.
Q. Hobbled? What do you mean by, hobbled?
A. When I was shot, I fell down, fell against a wall, and then fell down. I had trouble getting to my feet. I was, sort of, on all fours.
Q. Sort of on all fours?
A. Yes, sort of on all fours. I finally got to my feet and went to the man I had shot.
Q. What did you do when you reached Mr. Stevens?
A. I stepped on his gun.
Q. What type of weapon was this? Could you identify it?
A. It looked to me like an Army Colt.45 automatic, the Army service pistol.
Q. But you're not sure?
A. I didn't closely examine it.
Q. Why not?
A. I was otherwise occupied, for Christ's sake.
Q. (Captain Quaire) Watch it, Payne.
Q. (Detective Kramer) Was Stevens holding the weapon when you stepped on it?
A. No. He had dropped it, and it was half buried in the snow. I stepped on it to make sure he couldn't pick it up.
Q. Did you see him drop it?
A. No.
Q. Then how do you know the pistol you stepped on was dropped by Mr. Stevens?
A. Didn't you say I could stop answering questions whenever I wanted? Okay. I want to stop answering questions.
Q. (Captain Quaire) Is something bothering you, Payne?
A. Yes, sir. This guy's stupid questions are bothering me. How do I know it was dropped by Mr. Stevens? Who else could have dropped it, the good fairy?
Q. (Detective Kramer) We're just trying to clear this up as best we can, Payne.
A. I'm sorry I lost my temper.
Q. (Chief Inspector Coughlin) How long have you been discharged from the hospital, Officer Payne? I think that should be made note of in this interview.
A. I came here directly from the hospital. I don't know how long. Maybe an hour.
Q. (Detective Kramer) The first time you saw the.45 automatic pistol you stepped on was when you found it in the snow. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. You saw a pistol in the hand of the man subsequently identified to you as Charles D. Stevens, is that correct?
A. Correct.
Q. But you cannot positively identify the pistol you stepped on near Mr. Stevens after you shot him as the same pistol you saw earlier in his hand, is that correct?
A. Yes, that's correct.
Q. Did you see Mr. Stevens fire the pistol you saw him holding in his hand?
A. Yes. He shot me with the pistol he held in his hand.
Q. Did Mr. Stevens say anything to you when you went to him in the alley after you shot him?
A. No.
Q. What happened after you stepped on the pistol?
A. Mickey O'Hara was there. He took a couple of pictures, and then Lieutenant Suffern showed up and handcuffed Mr. Stevens.
Q. Was Mr. Stevens conscious?
A. Yes.
Q. Could you tell anything of the nature of his wounds?
A. No.
Q. Did you attempt to render first aid to Mr. Stevens?
A. No.
Q. What happened to you then?
A. I was put onto a stretcher, loaded in a van, and taken to Frankford Hospital.
Q. Do you know what happened to Mr. Stevens at that time?
A. He was in the same van as I was. He was taken to Frankford Hospital with me.
Q. (Chief Inspector Coughlin) Considering your weakened physical condition, Officer Payne, do you feel up to answering any more questions at this time?
A. I would rather not answer any more questions at this time.
Q. (Detective Kramer) You understand, Officer Payne, that we will be asking you more questions when your physical condition permits?
A. Yeah.
Q. Thank you, Payne.